Nicole Swartz, founder Sprout Law
So, you’re just starting your brand but don’t know where to begin? I highly recommend you start with a trademark search. Trademarking your brand is so important to keep your business YOURS and protect yourself from copycats. In today’s episode I have Nicole from Sprout Law to chat about all things trademarking.
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Kelly: Welcome back to a new episode of creative direction with Kelly Bennett. And as I said, I'm going to have some really cool guests on who are experts in what they do that will help you build an incredible brand. And today's episode is really, really special because this person is going to make sure that your trademark is set up properly. Which is so necessary. And so many people have learned that the hard way. So, Nicole, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm just so excited to interview you today.
Nicole: I'm it was like a day maker to be here as you talking to you so much.
Kelly: Well, thank you so much. So if anyone's tuning in, who is new to you or new to what you do, could you give us the overall of what the hell you do? Cause it's really cool and unique.
Nicole: Thank you. Yes. Okay. So, um, my name is Nicole Swartz. I'm an attorney. I have a law firm called Sprout Law and when you think of a law, you might think it's like boring and stuffy and I'm sitting here wearing a suit and we're going to talk down at you and it's going to be really like confusing. And that's not at all what we're talking about. We're going to talk about celebrities and astrology and make it fun. And Instagram-able , and, uh, so my whole goal is like helping women protect their businesses and, uh, and set up legally and protect their brand and what they're building and everything like that. So that's like the most important thing is. , yeah, helping people start a small business and have creative freedom, economic freedom, all of that kind of stuff. And let's do it in a fun way.
Kelly: That's okay. So right off the bat, anyone listening to now, you get why I love Nicole so much and the way that you make law fun and entertaining and something that I'm genuinely like whenever I get your emails. And whenever I see a new post from you, you're one of the few people who you could hear, like people say, like stopping the scroll for like, I genuinely love diving into your content and what you share. And again, I've, I've worked with small businesses for over a decade. Now I've never come across a lawyer, an attorney who I was that interested in connecting with. So you've just done a great job of making it feel also approachable. I think that's one of the big, big things that you do so well is that you make this subject that could feel so scary and daunting, and almost like this other world that like, it's kind of like this mystery of how it works. You make it feel really, really approachable so that you feel empowered to take those next steps. You feel like, okay, I can do this. Like now I have someone I trust. Now I know who to contact. So, how did you find. Your own unique brand and niche, being an attorney and being like, you know what, I'm not gonna wear a suit and I'm not going to be stuffy and I'm going to talk about celebrities and astrology. Also your series on people, brands that are trademarking for the metaverse has been one of my favorites. How are you? Like, you know what, fuck it. I'm going to do this my own way. And this is what it looks like for me to be an attorney.
Nicole's Journey to being her own attorney
Nicole: That's a good question. Yeah, I don't, it kind of just came together, like along the way, like when I first started it, didn't start out with side, definitely not five or six years ago. And it was called the Law Factory and it had like neon green gears and it was just like, it was like a Nickelodeon brand. Um, it wasn't really like that. It was much more like, like startup rubbish then. Like a lot of what you talk about like, I really sort of like honed in on like, who do I actually want to work with? And then focusing on like the stuff that I'm just naturally interested in and like the stuff that I'm passionate about, um, about my job and the work, the work stuff that I do. And it's like, what am I, what am I scrolling Instagram? Like on like, what websites do I go to? And trying to find a way to like, bridge that gap of like, I'm naturally interested in celebrities, I'm naturally interested in like astrology and how that plays into your business or how your Enneagram plays in, or like any of this stuff. And so it's like just trying to tie in the stuff that I'm excited about, because I feel like when you're passionate about something, those people, people pick up on that.
Kelly: A thousand percent and I'm really happy that you touched upon this is when you can find your own personal passions and then how it applies to your industry. I feel like once you kind of unlock that. The ideas of creating content or marketing or how to position yourself. And it feels so much more in a flow versus like staring at your phone or like staring at your website and being like, what the hell am I doing? So I, I thank you for sharing that because I think that's such a huge, huge piece that most people don't think about. It's like to be the weirdo that you are really lean into that. And then see, how, how does that connect to your industry? I figured that part out. I feel like everything else kind of flows so much easier.
Nicole: That's what I was thinking too. I was thinking like, you have to be weird. Like, like what we see on Instagram is like the same content over and over and over, over and over and over. Think about your industry and think about like, what's something that if other people in my industry like saw that I was doing this, they would be like, this person is nuts. Like if I were to. Talk to people. I went to law school with and was like, this is what I'm talking about on Instagram. They'd be like, what does that make any sense? I'm talking about that. Um, and I feel like that's what makes people interested because it's like, wait, you're talking about this and you're a lawyer? Like, it's that element of like surprise or like just something that people aren't normally doing, but that applies to any industry. Like what's something, you know, in whatever industry you're in that like, most people aren't talking about.
Kelly: I personally love that so much because I know how it feels to be kind of like that weirdo creative business person kind of like people are like, what exactly do you do? And just my own journey of finding my own niche. And then how do all the pieces connect? That is what I've noticed. People resonate the most. It's the stuff that I almost felt the most awkward about, because I'm like, this doesn't make sense. You know, like my journey here is such an odd one, but that's what I've noticed. So many people are like, thank you for sharing your story. Like you, I feel better now sharing about my kind of weird journey here, because I see how that could be interesting to someone. And I feel like we need more of that. We need more of like people who are just doing them versus this cookie cutter shit. Cause I feel like we're over that.
Nicole: Yeah oh my gosh. Completely agree. And then like what you were saying too about like sharing, like almost the embarrassing stuff, like the things that you feel like, oh, this is not gonna, this is, this makes me embarrassed to share. Like that's actually been the most powerful part of any of my marketing. So like I started, I ended up starting my business because of. I was working in LA, I started a skincare line cause I was like sober networking law. It was working like securities law and like crypto type stuff. And it just was like, not, it's not what I was about. And then, um, so I was burned out. I found a skincare recipe on Pinterest and I was like, this is what I'm gonna do. And I quit my last job to start a skincare line, like going to like festivals. It was totally random. And uh, I, it was just like a burnout, like. 2:00 AM Pinterest creative project. And then I, so I did that for two years and then I lost my brand because of the trademark issue. And I didn't know anything about trademarking at that point. Like I was an attorney, but I just didn't focus on that.
Kelly: I did not realize that your attorney prior to that.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. So this is embarrassing to me because like, I should have known that I should have been like doing the legal stuff and I obviously was not. Um, and then that's how I became obsessed with trademarks. And I was like, this is not going to happen to me again. It's not gonna happen to anybody. I know. Like I became like a trademark warrior about it and I like learned everything I could, but that's the part of the story that people like resonate with. They'll be like, I read your story on your, about page and that's what made me want to take it seriously. But that's like the most embarrassing story for me to share is to talk about how I had. Lose my entire brand when I was already an attorney, like that's powerful.
Kelly: It's so powerful. I've told the little snippet of your story to other people. So the people that I'm working with in the incubator who are, you know, building their emerging lifestyle brand. You gotta connect with Nicole because you're on that cusp of like going all in with your business and Nicole very authentically and honestly shared about her story. And she, it, it was the end of it, you know? And so that really also on the other side, when I share that little snippet of you and then to make sure people connect with you, it's almost like. Like this shit is real. Like, make sure you get it organized. They're like, oh, like, and not really connects with people because it helps put in perspective too, of like how important this is to get your work trademarked or get your brand trademarked, I should say. So thank you for sharing that story because it's such an honest human story that so many small business owners can resonate with and it's like, okay. She knows it from both ends. Let me, let me take that next step of figuring this out and getting this organized.
Nicole: Yeah. yeah I feel like it's like be weird and be, and share like your story, even though it's embarrassing. We all always worried like why we got here and why it's important to us. And usually that's not like, The greatest, most like, like the story that makes us like the most proud and like, whatever.
Kelly: Totally. I'm trying to think too. I've been working on my about page with a copywriter and the questions that she was asking about my story. I was looking back. I was like, gosh, this is so awkward. Like the fact that, like I got rejected from every college I applied to except for one community college that I think just took everyone. The fact that I was in special reading classes. Uh, dyslexic reading comprehension disorder. All the things that now I realize I've just turned into a creative way of communicating that thankfully has been able to build brands through my weird kind of communication of like more experiences and connecting with people because that's how I learn and comprehend because reading something it's just like, no, like I just can't. So it was interesting reflecting back on that story. And she was like, oh, this is really interesting. And this is kind of how you found your path. Oh, that's it. And I used to be so embarrassed to say that I was dyslexic and that like I'm, if you need me to read something and get it back to you probably won't happen. So, but now that I've, I've noticed people are like, thank you for sharing that, that makes me feel more comfortable sharing my story. So that's a big. An unexpected takeaway, I should say. Like, I love that. So let's get back into the law because this is again, I just am so happy that we've connected. Now. I feel like a couple of years now, I feel like it was like, you were one of the people I connected with. I want to say during the shutdown that I was like, oh my gosh, I like I'm so happy. I felt, um, how. How important is it, or maybe I should back it up because we know how important it is. When should someone start navigating the path of getting a trademark? What does that look like? Just to, again, demystify this process, because I feel like. It's an old wives tale of like how you get a trademark. So how do you break that down?
The path of getting a trademark
Nicole: Okay. So the trademark is for your brand name, your logo, your tagline. These are like ways to protect, you know, my brand name is called Sprout Law. So this is a way to protect like Sprout Law and make sure that nobody else is using that brand name. Okay. 'cause like, as you, as you build your business, like people will come out and be like, I'm sprout legal. Like we had this happened last year and stuff like that. And so it's, it's really hard to stop people unless you have the trademark. And so obviously if there's like a Sprout Law and a Sprout Legal, um, people are going to get that confused. And so definitely want to make sure that like, you're the only one with your brand name.
Kelly: I love that. So is it different trademarks for your brand name, your tagline and your logo?
Nicole: Yeah, they're all separate, but usually the name is just like the most important one, because then it's like the strongest trademark that you can have. And it's like, you know, any font, any color, any style. And then you could, you could do your logo as well, if you really liked like the design elements of it or something like that. So for me, like I just have my brand name per uh, trademarked, but my logo is just like a little flower and it's really simple. And I don't really care if I have to like change it or anything like that. So that's not worth it to me, but like, we're going to put it on a product or you really liked like the graphic elements of it. Like maybe that would make sense.
Kelly: Or if it was like, I'm using the example of like Nike like that swish is so iconic of that brand. So it makes sense. Like if you have like a symbol or something that's like really important to tell your brand story, like that would be a good idea.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah.
Difference between LLC and a Trademark
Kelly: So what is the difference? Cause I get this question a lot and again, I always am like, contact Sprout Law. Nicole we'll figure that because people feel like, okay, I have my LLC. Um, and that makes me be protected with using my name. And so could you help people understand? What's the difference of just having that LLC and a trademark?
Nicole: I'm so excited that you asked this question because everybody asks me this and it's so like misunderstood. Yeah. Okay. So there's a bunch of different things. Like the LLC for example, is something that you registered with the state, or like maybe you register corporation or maybe you register a DBA. Like I'm doing business as. In California it's known as an, FDN like a fictitious business name, but these are all ways that you can register your business and with an LLC or a corporation. You registered with the state and then all of that gets you, is something called limited liability. They are not personally liable for your business. If anything happens, like they're not gonna, you know, you have like this business lawsuit, they're not going to be able to access like your personal assets, um, cars, bank accounts, stuff like that. And that's super dramatic and it rarely happens, but it's just a good idea to like, have that protection there. It can also be helpful for some tax purposes and stuff like that too, but that's really all that you're getting with any of that kind of stuff. And so it doesn't protect your brand name at all. So just to give you an example, like, um, you know, if I have Sprout Law registered. But somebody in my same state could register like Sprouts Law and just like put an S at the end. And like, in a lot of states, like that's fine. Or they could be like the best ground law. It could be sprout legal LLC. They could, you know, there could be a sprout law LLC in Florida, in New York, like every other state. And so it doesn't protect your brand name at all.
Kelly: That is the biggest takeaway you could be, it could be your business just to protect like your personal assets and like for taxes. This is the business name that you're under, but it does not protect anyone using a similar name for their business.
Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. And it's the same thing with like domain names with Instagram means a lot of times people will be like, well, I have the domain name, so that's going to help me get the trademark. And nobody cares about domain names is not gonna help you at all.
Kelly: Okay. So that's a good one. And also too Instagram handles, like that doesn't mean that, that access to that trademark or any, does that help you at all?
Nicole: No, I wish it did. That would be like, so easy.
Starting the process of trademarking.
Kelly: Yeah, I wish it did too. Okay. So what does someone do they're starting. They're putting the pieces together. Maybe they've been doing it for a few years or they're just getting started, but they're like, I want to make sure that my name is protected. The people that I've found, who are really interested in trademarks are people who see that, you know, I work with lifestyle brands and they see, okay, maybe in the future I could be. X Y and Z with my business, or maybe a product line in the future, or I want to sell more online and like have a bigger presence and like, not just do business under my name, but like really build a brand for myself and name recognition. What does someone do to get that process going? Because it's about a year long, right?
Nicole: Yeah, it does take about a year to actually go through the full trademarking process. Um, and so I think, let me back up a second. Cause I think I didn't answer the question you asked before about like, when does it even make sense to do this? So I think you're right in that, like, it's really, when you're building a brand, like my hippie woohoo, California attorney answer is that. And take a gut feeling of when you're building a business and you know, that it's, you want it to be around for like three to five years? Like, you're like, this is my long-term plan. I'm committed to this. And when you think about your business name, if you think about it, and you're like, if I had to change it because of a trademark issue, cause somebody else trademarked it and I had to change my business name. What's that be a nightmare? And for some people like, yes, that'd be a nightmare, but for some people it's like, no, that's fine. I'll just change it to this other thing. And like, it wouldn't be like, Impact you. So if it, if it, if it does sound like, oh, if I had to change my name in 30 days, like that would be a huge thing, then it makes sense to start the trademarking process.
Kelly: I think that's a great answer. And also I feel like it's, when you really want to build that presence of this is your name. YOu know, like protect the brand. That's what I love about it too. It's like, this is your brand. This is your need. And this is what people are resonating with. It's really important to also have that protection around it.
Nicole: Yeah. And especially like, if you're investing in protecting it, like other people are going to notice that. And that sort of when the copycats start coming out as well.
Kelly: Oooo. Okay. So that's like a whole other conversation, but so just to finish this loop, how does someone start the process?
Nicole: Okay. So step one is a trademark search and that's where we just make sure that. The name is available because there's like 3 million trademarks out there already. And there are so many people filing, like since the pandemic, like everyone has started a small business, which is awesome. But for trademarking, it just means like there's a lot of applications out there. A lot of people trying to trademark names. So the first step is to make sure that it's available and it's not too similar to somebody else's. So that's step one is like, let's just make sure that it's even worth the investment of doing, and we want to make sure that it's actually going to be approved for you before we start. So step one is a trademark search for it. , it varies, you know, depending on who you work with. So obviously like check around, but just as an example, like, uh, with us, the trademark searches $59 and it takes like two to three days to run that.
Kelly: Honestly, I I've been recommending it to everyone. I'm like do a trademark search, I think for the cost too. It's like, A no brainer of having access to the yes or no, that you could even move forward with this name or that it would be ideal to move forward. I think. Top of the list. Just do a trademark search.
Nicole: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think for some people, it seems a little bit scary because they're like, I would rather like, not know, but it's like if you're going to find out one way or another, whether it's a battle. And so if you're building like a business and a brand and you're investing in it, it's like, you wanna make sure, you know, ahead of time just in case you need to change anything.
Kelly: Totally. And I've had some people who've done trademark search. With you too. And while they're in the incubator and we've made some adjustments or like how to pivot, and it was great to know because you're already investing in building a brand with me. I want to make sure we're building a brand that you could really run with and grow over the longterm. So I've seen it firsthand just from clients. Who've done trademark search with you, and then we're like, okay, we got to pivot. But thankfully they were in a, in a space that I was able to help them pivot. Done this before, but how it was so helpful to know that before we even got any further. So I've seen it firsthand. And also too, for myself, you've done a trademark search for my name, and now I'm in the process of trademarking. For me, it was so empowering knowing that I could trademark my name. And when someone wants to now do a trademark search. What is the process? What does that look like?
What a trademark search is like.
Nicole: Yeah. So the trademark search is how you make sure that your name is available, but it's likely to be approved before you go through the whole process. Um, we want to search around in the trademark database to see if there's anything similar or any reason why your trademark wouldn't be approved. So. Um, you know, there's different pricings, so definitely check around. But like for, for us, it's $59 and it takes about like one to two days. Oh, I said like two to three days to run it and make sure that like it's, it's available and it looks good before you go through the whole process, which as you said, it takes like about a year to go through like the full trademarking process.
Kelly: Totally. And I highly, highly, highly, highly recommend. Doing a trademark search with Sprout Law, because as I was sharing too, I have members of the incubator who I've recommended to Nicole and we've realized like, okay, great green light. Like they're going to start the process of trademarking or. Hold up. We have to pivot because this name is not able to be trademarked. So how do we get creative and change it? Because the people I'm working with are investing in their brand. And as we know, you need to protect your brand. If this is something you really want to do and grow. So I highly like if there's one thing I would say like do today is sign up for a trademark search with a Sprout Law. A game-changer. So that being said, you give them the rundown of like, okay, this looks good. Yes. You could do it. Or this doesn't look so good. Here's maybe some work around or like how to pivot, what do people then do next? Now? They're like, okay, this is the name I'm going to, it looks good that I could trademark it. What is the process of actually trademarking?
Actual process of trademarking.
Nicole: Yeah. So you, we start with the application. So that, um, you know, that's where we list, like you're, you know what we're trademarking, and then you list the different products and services that you sell. So you don't just get it for like everything in the world. You just get it for like your industry and your products and services.
Kelly: And this was something I was personally asking you too, is because when you are say a product or service, and then maybe you have a podcast or a blog, um, At different services, you have to trademark under those different services. And that I was like, oh shit. I did not even realize. So what's the cutoff like, so someone just has a blog on their website, it's on maybe a different brand or like, how do you help people differentiate?
Nicole: Between, like what types of products and services they sell or like?
Kelly: Yeah. Or, or like what to get trademark, like what, what do you think is like the main things to make sure you get trademarked or things to be trademarked, or maybe to be on the safe side, because maybe this is a part of your business that could grow in the future.
Nicole: Yeah, I would say like things that are your, like your moneymaker now, whatever part of your business is making, bringing in money, or like, if you think, you know, we're going to be launching this in a year or two years, and we think this is going to be a big moneymaker in the future, then that's the kind of stuff that you wanna include or like desks the brand to focus on. ANd then also, like there are areas too that are like very popular. So a lot of people will treat. You know, apparel, uh, like bath and body cosmetics, like business services, wellness, anything related to like, those, those areas are like very popular things for people to, to do like marketing graphic design, um, like anything in personal development, uh, stuff like that. So those are areas also that like, if you're going to be in one of those areas, like apparel or an e-comm shop, um, that it makes sense to, to do those a little bit earlier as well, just because. There's a greater chance that if you wait on it, that somebody else might try to trademark.
Kelly: That's really important. So it goes by the category. I think that's a big, big thing. Even for me like going through this process sound like, Ooh, okay. This is really making me put on a thinking cap because also too, to my understanding, you have to do it ahead of time versus adding it on later. Right?
Nicole: So once you, once you filed the application, you can't add anything new ever like, so you can only remove things. So if you, um, so sometimes that means you have to find a new trademark, if you want to add on a new product. So like, for as an example, let's say I'm an apparel business and I am selling shirts right now, but in the future, I want to sell. So I found my trademark and I just list apparel. I don't include shoes and then into gear and like, oh shit, I wanna, I wanna start selling shoes, but that's not my trademark. That's fine because those are related. So it's like, even though my trademark doesn't say shoes, it's a related product. Like a lot of companies that sell apparel also sell shoes. So it's like, it's not a big deal. I don't need thing. But if I'm an apparel company and then I'm like, I actually think I want to start doing like wellness coaching. Like that would be a whole new trademark because it's just not even related to a parallel.
Kelly: Got it. So if it's related, is it an easier process to add something on later on or have another file?
Nicole: Well, yeah, if it's related, you just, technically don't even need to file it at all because you still get protection for it.
Kelly: Interesting. That's good to know. Like, if you did want to include it, you'd have to like file another trademark and go through the process. But I'd probably just tell you not to even do that if it's related, because it's already included in your. Got it, but if it's a totally different thing, like you were saying an apparel company, but now they want to do a meditation app. Like that's a different trademark. Got it. That's really helpful too. I think, um, you know, I'm all about brand extensions and I love creating brand extensions. It's like one of my most favorite things to do in the world, but also making sure that when you are creating different brand extensions, you're being. Um, strategic about it, that you're protecting yourself so that when you do go to launch these new products is everything does take time, money, energy, you know, it's a big investment, no matter what you do. So making sure that you have this organized behind the scenes, I like to call this stuff like the behind the scenes stuff, you know, having that organized so that when you do. Put the time, money, resources into developing this stuff, you know, at least the brand is protected, which is huge.
Nicole: Yeah. And it's going to, it's honestly just saves you so much time and money and drama with the front end stuff. Yeah.
Kelly: Yes. And also with that too, I love how you always talk about like helping, what is it, helping women protect their brands and, um, from copycat. Yeah, that is huge too. So could you give us a little bit of a scenario, what that looks like and why trademarking your brand is so important so that anyone who does try to copy you you're protected.
What happens when someone tries to copy your brand.
Nicole: Yeah. So this, this happened to me, uh, but you know, have some time, but just an example from like my own personal experience with like last year. I think it was last year. It might've been two years ago, but, uh, my law firm is called Sprout Legal and I've been doing it for like 5, 6, 7 years maybe now at this point. Um, and so obviously I've been, you know, it's, that's a lot of like clients we've worked with is love. Instagram posts you're going to post it's a lot of like, just brand building and brand awareness and good will and everything like that. Um, but last year, or maybe it was two years ago, there was a, another company that came up, it was called Sprout Legal, and they were also going to be like trademark attorneys. And when I saw it, I was immediately pissed off. Cause I'm like, that's my brand.
Kelly: Your brand is Sprout Law and they were trying to do Sprout Legal.
Nicole: Yeah. They were Sprout Legal. And so they popped up in a Google alert. I had set a Google alert for my name, which is what we recommend you do once you have a trademark because you want to find people out there. So they showed up on Google. And so I immediately reached out to them and it was like, this is my brand. I've been building it for like five years at this point. Like, you're not allowed to use this name. It's too similar. Um, and they were like, we don't think it's similar. We're not going to change anything.
Kelly: WHAT?
Nicole: Yeah. And I literally had, this is why I put like trademark attorneys, like in quotes, like they were trademark attorneys. Cause like, I don't... I question how good they were at their job. But anyways, I had to explain to them like, this is what trademarks are. And like this, this name is 100% too similar and we will win and we will sue the pants off of you. And we have a trademark. And as soon as I said, like those magic words that we have, the trademark, we will sue you, we will win. Here's why the very next day they're like, we changed everything. I hope this resolves it. And it was literally because I had a trademark and if I didn't, they were not going to change anything. And like, if you went to find me after this podcast, That sounds fun. And they're talking about celebrities are talking about astrology. I'm going to follow them on Instagram and you probably wouldn't know if I was Sprout Law or Sprout Legal, or like you had a conference and they accidentally put my, um, on my badge, they put like Sprout Legal on the bottom of it. And it's just like, that's not a big deal, but if there's another brand called Sprout Legal, that's a huge deal. Because now everything that I do is sending clients to like my competitors who just tried to rip off my name.
Kelly: Holy shit.
Nicole: Yeah I I was pretty pissed.
Kelly: That's wild that they were also quote unquote "trademark attorneys". Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. They were also, like they said, like, we're going to ask our trademark attorney for their legal opinion. And I was like, I thought y'all were trademark attorneys like, well, I don't, I couldn't figure out what was going on with them, but anyways, um, yeah, so the point is if I didn't have a trademark, there would be two of us right now. And it's very, very hard to stop somebody. If you don't have a trademark, like as a small business, you just. There's certain requirements that you have to meet. And as a small business, you just have no chance of meeting them. Um, unless you make like a half, a million dollars a year in like every major city in the United States, then you're not gonna be able to stop somebody unless you have a trademark. So that's why it's so cool.
Kelly: Wow. Okay. So that's good to know. And then also what's the caveat of, like, you have to show proof that you've been doing it under a name in order to get a trait. It sounds like such an awkward dance. You need to get started to use the name, but also. You need to show proof or like you can't move too much forward unless you do have the trademark. Tell me about that awkward, that awkward dance of getting a trademark, because I try to explain it to people, but again, that's why I'm like just contact Nicole. She will walk you through this, but I think this would be one to help people understand
Strategy to showing proof of your trademark
Nicole: there's a strategy to it. So basically there's two separate ways that you could probably trademark. So one of them is saying that like you're already using this brand. So for. For Sprout Law, I would say I'm already using the name Sprout Law to do law stuff. That's a legal term law stuff. And so prove it's just like a website screenshot, um, that like I'm actually using the name. So that's one of my, but you can also file another way. That's like, I'm going to be using the names for outlaw to so apparel in the future. I'm not, but just as an example, so I can find like this future application and that protects my name. As soon as I file it, but to actually get that trademark, eventually I've got to show that I'm actually using it. I'm actually selling a pair them. and the reason why there's some strategy involved is because the trademark office charges some more fees. If for like future use.
Kelly: Interesting.
Nicole: Yeah. So actually, I don't think we walked through the full process of like how it works, but like, oh yeah.
[Kelly: Walk me through it. Yeah.
Nicole: So without the application with the trademark office, and then we list, you know, the different products, whatever, and we have to say like, are you currently using them or are you going to use it in the feature. So we had to pick one or one or the other, and then it takes them about right now, like this changes all the time, like the timelines. But right now it takes them about six to seven months to review it. So we're just kind of waiting for a long. And then according to the trademark office, they deny it initially like 84% of the time. So this is just like part of the process. Everybody gets denied at first. I don't know why they do it. Like they want to make it difficult for people to like own brand names and stuff like that. So there's just a lot of like technicalities and everything that they have to go through. But usually there's some back and forth with the trademark office. Sometimes it's small things like you use commas instead of semi-colons or like they don't like the way you described something. And so sometimes it's just like small changes or sometimes it's big things. Like they think that your name is too common. Um, like a lot of people use it or it's too similar to somebody else or something like that. So those things we just usually have to go back and forth with the trademark office about, and like sometimes the arguments that we have to make are so silly, like it's like, uh, cause they consider like they consider a lot of stuff too similar. So it will be like one time we literally had to argue. This word in Spanish can mean dove or pigeon. And like the fact that it could mean two different things, even though the same bird, but people view them differently. Um, that's like why somebody got like, one of our clients got their trademark approved. Cause we were like, you wouldn't release pigeons at a wedding and you would release doves. Like it's literally just the most random stuff, but. Uh, that's why I say it's weird because it's like, that's weird to like do that stuff. But anyways, um, all right, let me go back and forth with the trademark office. Then it goes to publication for 30 days and it gives people a chance to object to it as they think that it's too similar to their brand. So they don't like proactively notify people or like give them heads up or anything. It's mostly like large companies and their attorneys who are like watching this type of stuff. So if anybody objects, then it's usually just negotiating with them to like change some things around in your application. But after that 30 day period, then it gets approved. If you've been already been using it, it's like, you're approved. You're good to go. You're just done. But if you filed one of those future applications where you're saying like, I'm going to use it in the future, then they conditionally approve it at that point. And then they say like, okay, now you have six more months. So it's usually about a year and a half, maybe two years from when you filed it. Before you have to actually show that you're actually using it. So then at that point they charged, they just charge more fees at that point. So what to like review that you're actually using it. [00:37:00] And so it's kind of a delicate saying where it's like, um, you know, if you're already using it, then you just do what you do. But if it's stuff that's like in the future, then, um, you know, you. Ahead of time and then like file your application. Like the next day they'll maybe save some money or if it's stuff that's going to be released in six months or a year, then maybe it's like file your application first and then go ahead and launch.
Kelly: Interesting. Do you recommend when someone's getting the ball rolling, that they at least do the trademark search, maybe for a few different name, ideas that they have and seeing what's the best option that most likely could get trademark to get the ball rolling. And then once you get started, then following through with the whole process?
Nicole: Yeah. Usually I think it makes sense to just start with a search like it's, so it's such a small thing that gives you so much information, and then that way you can look at different brand names. You can see like which one has the biggest chance of success. Um, and then once you've kind of like settled on the branding of it and everything, then you can go through the trademark process.
Kelly: I love that that's honestly so helpful. And I was working on a project not too long ago, and it was a big thing. I was like, listen, in order to like, go forward and invest all this money in building this brand. Like we have to do a trademark search. And it was me trying to convince an investor, which I was so surprised with. I was like, listen, if you really want to do this thing, like, you gotta make sure you could trademark the name. And he was just like, confused by that. And I was like, all right, well, the project didn't work out. I don't have to go into detail, but the investor, like the whole thing was just like mushy, mushy. But, um, I remember being like, you have to trademark the name, like how are you going to put all this money into a business and not trademark the name? I just feel like it's not talked about enough. Yeah,
Nicole: absolutely. I've heard from like so many. Like graphic designers and like branding experts that like, they, I, I was just talking to somebody over the weekend and they were like, yeah, I put, I put this in my contract that like, they have to run a trademark search. And it's not my fault because like, so many people were trying to get their names. They, they paid for all this branding and then they were like, oh, actually I found out a year later after they paid like thousands of dollars for brand. Yeah. And they had to like pay for that all over. And that's what happened to me with my skincare line. Said like no judgment. I paid for branding that I had to change. Same thing happened to me. So.
Kelly: That's really interesting. Okay. And then also I love what you do is your contract templates, which I got when I was doing my website, which Kate of Folk Founded, who's also a client of yours and oh, my gosh, she's amazing. She's in my incubator. I then hired her to do my website. So I love this like community that we're building here. And then I went back to your website and I got the, um, website, um, template when she was building my website. And so for someone who isn't sure, because I've used a few of your templates now, can you walk us through what that aspect of your business is like? Cause it's a game changer.
Contract Templates
Nicole: Yeah. So we have these contract templates that are, you know, different than like a personalized contract. Like it's not going to be like personalized for your business, but it's, it's written for like the average business and that we have everything from like website policies and terms and conditions and privacy policies to like a client agreement or maybe you're hiring independent contractor. Um, Or, you know, maybe you're hiring an influencer or maybe you want to have a podcast and you need, uh, you know, like a release for guests or like just any of these random, you know, different contracts that you need. Um, this is something that like I noticed when I w you know, when I had my skincare business, even though I was a lawyer, I was looking at like the prices for personalized contracts. You know, a thousand dollars, $1,200, like I'm not going to do that. Um, and even some of the templates I saw were like $400. And it was like, even though I was a lawyer, I was like, I'm not going to pay $400 for like that. It just, I, it was too expensive. So, um, my like all of our contracts are $49 and it's like, there's no reason why they need to be like crazy expensive. Um, so they're just written for the average business and then you personalize like some, some things about it.
Kelly: That's what I'm saying. It's a, game-changer when I was looking at different templates too, even for the website, Wow. Sprout Law made this very accessible because some of the prices, like you said, like $400, $500, $200. I'm like, this is wild and you need a lot of different stuff to get your business going. So I appreciate that so much. And I've sent that link to so many people. I'm like, get the templates here, like. Personalize it to you, but this alone will just give you some structure to keep, you know, to get things organized.
Nicole: Yeah. And then you can use the same template over and over for like the same things. You know, every client, you can use the same client agreement and they all, they all come with a YouTube video that walks you through, like what each clause is. So, you know, what's in your contract. And that way also, like, as you're reviewing different contracts in the future, you kind of know like, oh, that's what this means. Um, so there's no reason to like, be. Be scared of it. It's not scary. I promise.
Kelly: Yay. Okay. So as everyone can see, this is why it's so important to connect with people who you resonate with so that you feel empowered to take these next steps and. I feel that you could trust someone because it's very vulnerable to put yourself out there and start a business. Right? It's very vulnerable to share your story, the awkwardness, like we were talking about earlier, and to have someone that you can resonate with and feel like, okay, they understand me. They get my creativity, especially as like a creative person and they're going to help me set up my business properly. Like I said, it's a game changer. It is. It really is. So how does someone connect as you hire you? Um, do a trademark search with you, get your con um, contract templates, like where, where can people find all of this?
Nicole: You can find all at sproutslaw.com And you can book a free consultation there. If you want to talk through trademarks, you can do that on the website. Um, our contract templates are on the site too. And then if you want to geek out about celebrity trademarks in the metaverse and, uh, astrology with me. You can find me on Insta @sproutlaw.
Kelly: I love it. Thank you so much, Nicole. This was so informative. So educational, so just, um, comforting in a way, like knowing that you're so awesome at what you do and just like empowering people to protect their brands is just really cool. So thank you so much for everything that you do.
Nicole: Absolutely. It's just been a pleasure. Anytime I get to talk to you I'm happy.
Kelly: Ah, right back at ya. Well, thank you so much, everyone for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.
