Nora Wolf, Founder Wolf PR & Wolf Craft

Sep 16

I bring people on my podcast who I deeply admire and today I have Nora Wolf. Nora Wolf owns not one, but TWO PR companies and is on the show today to share how she got started. I’m so excited for you to hear her story because it gives me goosebumps! If you are in need of PR services look no further than Wolf PR and Wolf Craft.

in this episode, we talk about:

Behind the scenes of how Nora built her business
Finding the right niche
Nora’s Journey into Wolf Craft
Nora’s Day to Day in business
Wolf Craft Course

connect with wolf craft

Website wolf craft
Instagram @go.wolf.craft

TRANSCRIPT

Kelly Bennett: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to a new episode of creative direction with Kelly Bennett. I promised that I was going to bring on people who I deeply admire, who I am also obsessed with them as a human and their work who are freaking experts at what they do. I literally have goosebumps because Nora Wolf is on the podcast today.

Kelly Bennett: And I'm beyond excited to talk to you today.

Nora Wolf: Kelly, you are like the world's best hype person.

Kelly Bennett: It's true. I really feel this way.

Nora Wolf: if you're having a bad day, just go hang out with Kelly and she'll like, make you feel good again.

Kelly Bennett: Anytime. I really, I, I was a cheerleader in high school and I really do love cheering people on, but it's like genuine. Like when I cheer someone on, like, I feel it in the depths of my soul that like, they're just so cool. And I wanna cheer them on. I encourage them.

Nora Wolf: Well, you should know. It's, it's felt over here. Thank you so much.

Kelly Bennett: You're so welcome. I'm so happy to hear that. So I have talked with you before, when I was testing out, actually it was kind of like a test of this podcast. I was doing an IG series and when I knew that I was going to make it like a professional, like legit podcast, I message you. I'm like, oh my gosh, I would love to have you because. What our conversation was then. And just also seeing how your business has grown since then. Cuz now I think that's like almost two years ago or a year and a half ago that was like, I don't know, time anymore, but there a bit of time, I wasn't even in New York yet. Um, I just love how you've. One have a really distinct niche in your industry. And then also how you've differentiated with, um, two different businesses who have reached two different markets within that niche. And this is again, one of the reasons why. I just admire the hell out of you because I just love how you've built your business. So with anyone who's tuning in who isn't familiar yet with you or your story, could you give us a little bit of the behind the scenes and then we'll dive into the, the good stuff.

Nora Wolf: Okay. So. The, the business life story of Nora. Um, so I guess it kinda starts back in undergrad. I went to The School of The Art Institute of Chicago, and I thought I wanted fashion designer and I interned. And I was like, oh, this industry is rough. And I do not wanna be a fashion designer. I don't wanna work in this industry, no shame to anyone who does it just felt like it was a, the, the pace was like too much. Right. And there was a lot people. So, I was like, I need to think about this. And I dropped out of that program and finished my degree studying video. And so what I did to my yeah, little known fact, and so I graduated and I had this like portfolio that was like fashion, but not finished and video, but not finished. Right. And I was being very precious about it as a 21 year old thinking that no one would want to hire me, which is so crazy because what do we hire recent college graduates to do is like, get the coffee, go through the mail, like pick up the pieces, manage the Excel spreadsheets, whatever. So anyway, I was in my head and I also did a thing that a lot of people do where they're like, what else am I good at? And I'm good at people. And I had done some PR in my fashion internships and so applied to PR jobs, which I had no business doing. Like I had no formal training. No whatever my whole career has been. Like, I can probably do that.

Kelly Bennett: I love that by the way.

Nora Wolf: Yeah, y'all get good at Googling. You can do anything you want. So, I took this art background and applied to a bunch of PR jobs. And the first place that hired me was a PR firm in sign. And I worked there for three years. I learned a lot. My boss was formerly an editor at a design publication. So she had informed like the entire way we worked based on how she had received pitches in her past life. And then I worked at another PR firm and this was like a less good fit. And I, not that I have anything bad to say about the people, but it was just like, I was clearly like already ready to like, try doing something different and, I also like watched some things that I didn't think that they were doing well. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna learn from their mistakes. I'm gonna learn from my other boss' mistakes and I'm gonna make my own mistakes also, but not those mistakes. So I kind of like learned a lot also, and this is insane. Both businesses had me do the books, which I don't know why anyone's giving like 23 year old and 24 year old books, but I would do them and I loved it. And so I learned a lot about how to run my own business by doing that.

Kelly Bennett: Wow.

Nora Wolf: And here we are. I started my own firm right after that. That was like just under a year and made my own mistakes for the last 11 years instead. And so I, I started Wolf PR right after that second firm and about two years ago, I started Wolf Craft a little bit over two years ago with my best friend from undergrad, from that art school. And I took all the learnings of doing PR for this long with the design industry, and turned it into something that folks who have small business can learn how to do this for themselves. We charge, you know, our lowest price right now is four grand a month. And usually we have contracts that started six months, usually eight months. So that's not like accessible for independent designers all the time. And I get that and I'm so inspired by that work. And small retail shops, you know, like not everyone has, and I didn't either when I started out. So it's kind of just. I didn't wanna keep turning away people that I thought their work was really interesting and contributed to a larger design conversation and people who reminded me of myself when I started out. So I really wanted to create a business to work with those folks and help them do this part of their business. That feels mystical. It shouldn't feel mystical, but it mystical. Yeah.

Kelly Bennett: Totally. And so there's, so see, and already anyone listening could be like, okay, now we know why Kelly was so excited to have Nora on because that whole journey, and again, how you've broken down into different businesses and how you've reached the different markets. But, I definitely wanna go back a little bit to what was that moment or what was the feeling? What was the, the drive to leave a firm and then say, you know what. I'm gonna just do this myself. Like I've learned enough. I see that. I want a niche sounds because you do design PR, right? What made you say I'm, I'm gonna do this, like I've learned enough or, you know, I, I just wanna do this for myself. I wanna have my own business.

Behind the Scenes of how Nora built her business

Nora Wolf: I'll tell you what. So without, I mean, I'm trying to like, think about the best way to answer that question. Cause I have like 14 different answers, but I think like the audacity and naivety of youth really powered that and I'm the kind of person that really does, has always looked at my books, like have always lived within my means, even when I was like very poor in college and I got paid like $75 a week by some bar to like, get names for their mailing list, you know, like then I was like, well, I can only spend $70 because I need to put some money in my savings account. Like I've always been that kinda person. So I knew. Um, I had a couple of like great privileges working my favor. The first was, I was under 26. I had one more year. I used that year from 25 to 26 to start my business. And while at that year I got to go on my dad's health insurance. Which I would not have been able to start my business if I felt like I had to have health insurance and, and have to pay for it as well. So that was the first big thing that like, let me do it is I had a little bit of a safety net. I live in New York City. My parents live in a suburb of New York City. So I knew it like they were never gonna pay my rent. That was never gonna happen, but like, if it fell apart, they had a lovely basement for me to crawl into and like lick my wounds. So I had a few safety nets in place. So I do wanna say like, this isn't just like totally boot strappy. You know, I paid all my bills, but like I had some safety net in place. And then I kind of was just like, I think I can do this. I think that's kind of it it's like, I think I can do this. I would rather that money go into my pocket instead of just a portion of. Right. I was doing the books. I kind of knew what was coming in and coming out. I understood financial health of businesses a little bit. And, and I was just like, if not now, when, like, I don't have a mortgage, I don't have kids. I don't have a partner, like, why not take this risk? And if it falls apart for the rest of my life to like go make money somewhere else. So it ended up being a really good choice.

Kelly Bennett: Amazing. I love that so much. And I, I really appreciate you sharing those. Tact tact, full things that you had in place, or like just you, you knew that you could have one more year on your dad's health insurance. You knew that you could go to the basement of your parents' house. I've personally shared, uh, stayed in many of family members, basements while on my entrepreneurial journey. So I totally feel you on that, but also it's like that, that position when you're in, like, you know, that I can't like, you know, what the bottom would look like and you're. Okay. That's not that bad. And then you're also young enough to be like, let's just do it. Like. You don't have that much pressure on yourself. You don't have that many, you know, things that you have to have on your plate and you allowed yourself to explore. And I appreciate that so much cuz sometimes just giving yourself that permission, I think is the hardest part and where so many people could get tripped up. And I love how you really broke that down of where your mindset was to allow yourself to try.

Nora Wolf: Yes. Yeah. I think also, right. I had four years of work behind me. So I that's like, you know, you go to college for four years. You go to high school for, for four years, probably that internal rhythm that eventually you get out of, but you've been trained your whole life that like you go to school, you have summer, then you start a new thing. And then like, it starts getting into bigger chunks of like four years, four years, four years. So like I was at a cycle moment. It was time to graduate. Working for other people and start working for myself. So, yeah. And, and I'll, I'll say like, it's really hard to start a business in New York city. Like I just started a second one during the pandemic and New York makes it so hard and expensive and like the ACA. isn't really that great. I think we have a lot of improvements, but like thank God that I could like, feel enough security to take that huge financial risk and like make like the, you know, whatever this isn't a political podcast. And I don't wanna, I, we have a lot to talk about, about PR.

Kelly Bennett: Yeah, do what you want to say.

Nora Wolf: Yeah, I think just like we have a lot of growth to do as far as like supporting entrepreneurs of every, any age. Like I was lucky cause I was 20, 25. I could take advantage of that, but some like I'm 36 now I should still be able to like take that risk if I want to. And I pay a ton of people now, like I have employees and contractors and I'm like doing the American dream of like growing the economy. And so like having that support in the beginning was essential. And I just tweaked in and, you know, you're so dumb when you're 25. So, I just feel like why we don't have that kind of support is really frustrating. And I really feel for people who are trying to figure out how to do their own dreams and like aren't able to, for very legitimate reasons.

Kelly Bennett: Thousand percent. And I think that in these conversations and why I wanted to have the podcast too, is that people can maybe have. Things that they could get started with, if they're not able to maybe take a huge leap at this moment, or, you know, I, I've been very privileged to be able to take really big leaps and that's just also my personality. And also just how I learn. I learn through experience. But that's not for everyone for whatever reason. So I like these conversations that people can get little tidbits and inspiration and like, okay, cool. Let me try that to get them in the flow to be curious. I think that's a big part of it too, to be curious of like, okay, how can this come together? You know, I think that's, that's a really big piece of it. So, another part that I wanted to touch upon is that you did it's. Was it always from the beginning that you did PR for designers or? Okay, so right from the beginning, how did you know that that was going to be your niche? Okay.

Finding the Right Niche.

Nora Wolf: Girl, I didn't like I applied to PR jobs and I was just like, they hired me and I think, you know, I didn't know, consciously, but subconsciously this like art and design background, because that's what I studied in school. That's what I've always been interested in, pushed through and brought me to a job that was connected to this industry. So, yeah, my first two jobs were in that and at that point I had. Spent four years developing relationships with this industry and kind of like deep diving. And that's also the kind of person, when I'm curious about something, you keep mentioning curiosity, like I just face plant into it. And so I was like, I wanna know everyone in the design industry. I wanna know every editor. I wanna know, like I got so granular. I like knew the guys who ran the showrooms of our clients, like the showroom managers, which got me clients at the end of the day. So I just kind of like.

Kelly Bennett: Amazing!

Nora Wolf: Mm-hmm. Deep dove into deep dove into it. Furniture's cool. Lighting's cool. Like what's not to like?

Kelly Bennett: So cool. And that's like another reason why too. I just love what you do because on my own personal journey, really refining on who I'm working with. I recently have worked with quite a few interior designers. And it's inspired the hell outta me. And it's definitely an industry that I wanna work more with. And so that's why also I love what you're doing. And also I've found so many amazing other brands and organizations like Female Design Council in New York city and NYC design week, that just happened. I found them from you. And I just started following people. And I went to a few events this past week, and I just thank you so much for sharing also of like the cool people that you're working with, because I'm the same way I started following different designers and makers and just seeing the scene here in New York City, which is so robust. Like coming from downtown Las Vegas, which is amazing, but it's an emerging market to then New York City and being like, whoa, like it's, it's flourishing here. So, just a side note. Thank you for also sharing, because I could see how you've built this amazing network and just sharing different people and tagging people. I'm like, this is all the people I wanna connect with. So it's been really, really cool just seeing it now in real life.

Nora Wolf: Yeah. The Female Design Council is incredible. Laura, Laura Appleton, who founded it is like a dear friend of mine, but also just a wizard. I don't think she realizes how powerful. I mean, she knows she's powerful, but I don't think she how powerful she is. Cuz she's just like incredible. Everyone should go check that out. Soft plug for Female Design Council.

Kelly Bennett: Yes, yes. And I went to, I, I have it on my list to post about this week. I went to the, um, The exposition. What do, what do you call it? The,

Nora Wolf: at the Javitz an ICFF? Yes.

Kelly Bennett: That, no. What was the other one that she curated with all female

Nora Wolf: at Carl Hanson. Yes.

Kelly Bennett: Yes.

Nora Wolf: Incredible.

Kelly Bennett: I was such a little weirdo in there because I just like lingered and like stared at everything. And I took so much videos. And like, when I walked in, there was no one there. I just like walked around. I'm like, am I allowed in here? But like, they let me in. And then someone came in was like, telling me more about it. But like I was in awe, I'm gonna do a whole post on it. And like tag, I have to look up all the makers and stuff, but like that was next level.

Nora Wolf: She'll love that. Yeah, she's brilliant. She's brilliant. like the woman that she brings into her circle and the designers that she like mentors and like uplifts incredible. So like that's the kind of stuff, you know, I like to watch and be a part of, and then like support in my own way from my weird little corner, so,

Kelly Bennett: Which is so cool. And I saw that you were a speaker also panel?

Nora Wolf: Yes. So about woman in design that was through Female Design Council. So yeah.

Kelly Bennett: I love it. See, I, I really have been watching .

Nora Wolf: You're on it Kelly!

Kelly Bennett: And I really am. I love what you're doing. I'm like, oh my gosh, you are goals. And I know, I always message you like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. But like, it's genuine. I really love what you've done.

Nora Wolf: So touched thank you.

Kelly Bennett: Yeah, of course. So now it's 11 years. You did Wolf Craft. Well, you did Wolf PR, which specialized in design PR, then we touched upon it slightly. But during the pandemic you were like, you know what, I'm gonna launch another business.

Nora Wolf: Yeah. What I wanna do is add stress to my life.

Kelly Bennett: Yeah, why not? We're just really going for it right now. So what has been that journey? Cause you said you for Wolf PR, it was, you know, higher, it's all full service PR. It's a higher retainer for clients who need that full service. Right. But that you also saw this other market of people who are maybe independent designers or just starting out small business. And you're like, there's definitely a need for it. They're not a full service client? You touched upon it, but if you could just share a little bit more of how you started than the second business?

Nora’s Journey into Wolf Craft

Nora Wolf: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that, so Wolf PR still exists also. Like I'm still doing it day in and out. So I run two businesses, which is kind of crazy. And one of the things that we're really good at with Wolf PR is pitching for holiday gift guides. Like that every publication has one and publications that like, we don't normally get to pitch.We get to pitch for that time of year. Like men's health. I don't really have stuff for men's health. Like they're not talking about sofas and pretty lamps, but during the holidays, they're like, what can you get for your partner and your mother and your kid? And they like call together shopping guides. So. That seems like the best opportunity for other small businesses. And so the very first thing that I had wanted to do, and I didn't even have a business in mind yet. I had thought of it like two or three years before I started Wolf was to create a course on how to pitch gift guides, based on like how much success we have of doing that. And Lauren, who is a sweetheart angel, baby smart, smart lady who I'm privileged to say works for me. She took my initial notes from Pitching Gift Guides and kept refining it. And me and her would go back and forth. Cuz we have a very transparent culture where we like put each other on CC for everything we critique each other's work. So like everything is kind of very like in the spirit of like let's share everything be open so we can make each other stronger. And we really refined our pitching technique for holiday gift guides. And I think. If I'm just gonna like normal brag, not even home brag, brag. I think we're one of the best like firms for pitching, for holiday gift guides, especially. So I took all these learnings and I took Kirsten, my business partner at Wolf Craft and Kirsten's like a wizard as far as like organizing stuff. She, or like, I'm good. I'm good. She's great. She's exceptional. And she took all these thoughts and put it into a course. And that was like the very first thing that we tried to. To form a business around was this course and it's just really grown from there. The other thing that kind of was happening simultaneously is there is this incredible jewelry designer. Kat Merick who everyone should check her out. She's like a gem. She's a great follow on Instagram also. And she makes these really great pieces of jewelry and she emailed me and she's like, I want you to do my PR. And I was like, well, like probably, probably we can't, but like, let's figure this out. Cause I loved your jewelry. And she was like really persistent in this charming way. And so I was like, I'll just mentor you. Like, why not? We'll do these like one-on-one calls. and she kind of was the genesis of starting one-on-one coaching also, which I didn't realize was something that was sellable or that people would be interested in, but proved wrong. And she was like also an incredible student. And I think she got a lot out of it. And so I've been doing one on one courses, kind of like even before Wolf craft started or not courses coaching just to, appease one person. And it turned into something that. We get asked for all the time and I can't really keep up with anymore. Like we are trying to figure out the next steps for it.

Kelly Bennett: Isn't that so cool though. How, and I, and this is a, these are the things that I love to point out of like someone asked you a question at the time, maybe your business wasn't the solution. However, you got creative because it was worth exploring. And you're like, I don't know exactly what this is and I don't know exactly how this is going to translate, but let me explore it and then to see how it then developed and now is like, Such a big part of the business and you've de differentiated yourself and how that's grown is so cool. And I think that's a really important reminder also for people like, sometimes it's good to say yes to something that you're not even quite sure how it would work to it because you never know.

Nora Wolf: Absolutely. Well, and I, so this is my kind of like Nora philosophy of business, which is like, I run a business because I want to make money because I live in capitalism and I still like the work. I do a lot, but I would also like to read a lot more books and like walk my dog on longer walks and like do other things. And so if I am doing this business, it has to make sense financially for me to pursue it. Um, so when I started Wolf PR I didn't even have a website or a business card. I like paid Google $7 for an email address after I had my first client, I had that client because I kind of knew them cause like I told you, I like into the design industry.

Kelly Bennett: That's what I was gonna ask you of how you first got your client. So, was it a personal relationship that you had with a designer to get the ball rolling?

Nora Wolf: It was a relationship with a former showroom manager who brought in to like, do, be a co-founder for a startup. And that startup ended up being like a unicorn company for a little while. They ended up falling apart as a lot of them do, but like, an incredible first client and that was just personal relationships and saying, yes. So like I put the number one goal of like, will this pay my rent? And can I sock away for health insurance? And then eventually like a retirement fund, you know, like all those things that was the goal. And so with like the one on one stuff, I was like, oh, it's profitable. I can productize it. But like, if it wasn't, I wouldn't continue to like force square peg into a round hole. So there was, been proven needs for all this.

Kelly Bennett: That's a really good point too. And I like how you put the parameters around it, because that is a caveat to like testing and experimenting. Sometimes it feels like. You could go totally off the rails where so many creatives are like over here and then over there and over here, but like having parameters around testing something because you're like, okay, this could be something I really like that tip. That's a really solid, thing to, for people to remember, when exploring a new possibility.

Nora Wolf: Yeah, yeah. Not to say I haven't crush and burned, but like money's an important part of business. Otherwise it's like a hobby and hobbies are an important part of life. I keep my hobbies quite separate from my business.

Kelly Bennett: That's a really, really good point because it's something that I personally have been working through a lot. And to be honest with you, a big part of me moving back to New York City, I was like, I'm gonna have no other choice. And to really figure my shit out allow myself to build a, thriving business because I have to like just fucking New York city in general is just so much more expensive I have to. And it's really wild to see. I was just thinking about this yesterday, how my business has grown in a fairly short amount of time, just being in the energy back of New York City. And just because I need to. How I've figured things out, even faster. Because you have to make money here.

Nora Wolf: New York is our hustle city. You'll grow.

Kelly Bennett: It, it is, it is.

Nora Wolf: It's incredible. I love, I that's what I love. That's why I moved back here. After undergrad. I could have stayed in Chicago and it would've been easier, but I wouldn't be here.

Kelly Bennett: Yeah, there's nothing like it there's nothing like it. And I I'm born and raised long island. So like I was raised by. Hustle New York culture, but there's nothing like living in the city. You know, it's a one hour train ride from like where I grew up on Long Island to the city. It's a world it still is like a world of a difference. And I would just take the train sometimes and just go to Penn Station and like walk around outside and like eat pizza and be. This is where I'm gonna live. I don't know how, but the energy was always something that I felt in my gut. I'm like I have to be here. So I, I definitely, I did. Yeah. I've, it's took a few times. I've lived in the city. This is like my fourth go around of like building my business and living in the city. And, that's when I lived in a few basements and just like figuring my shit out, but like, I feel like when you allow yourself to have the business that you want and allow yourself to make money and to, to really think through those steps of like, how much do I need to charge and how many do I need to sell? And just allow yourself to get a bit more strategic and organize, which sounds like something you've just inherently had, which is amazing, or, or learned from your early days in business or at your job. Those are game changers.

Nora Wolf: Yep. Yep.

Kelly Bennett: Game changers. So tell me, you've said that you now have employees, you have contractors, like what does your business look like now? What's kind of like your day to day?

Nora’s Day to Day in Business

Nora Wolf: Hunching over my computer and dealing with the clock.

Kelly Bennett: Okay

Nora Wolf: It's like, 95% of my life. Yeah, I mean, hiring is really hard. My heart goes out to anyone trying to hire it's impossible. And then like managing the people that you work with is really hard. So I've had, I think at the most I've had three people working for me, but that is not our current setup. And I don't know that it will be Lauren is full time. I hope she never leaves me cuz I'm obsessed with her and she's so good at what she does and she's. You know, she, I don't really necessarily believe in titles and because we're such a small business, like we both do everything. So like, she'll write an email for me, but then she'll also pitch out like our most expensive clients work. So it kind of like goes like in a really large spectrum and I will write an email for her and we will, you know, share hot dos between each other. So it's kind of. We just are very symbiotic. And then a lot of my job, I feel like is clearing the way, clearing her way, clearing a path. And so she can just like do amazing work. So I'll handle like weird requests and I will get interesting leads and I will handle all the bookkeeping and all this stuff. So that way she can like, do some really good pitching. And then, because I've just been doing this for 15 years, like the contacts that I have relationships that I've had for all that time, I will reach out to, and also do higher level pitching as well. So, we have an incredible woman who does our bookkeeping and kind of like financial management for both businesses, which I just upgraded my business. It feels like I graduated into college with, with this because I was kind of like, Jerry rigging all our finances. And finally, we had someone actually do a grown up version of it. So that's something that feels like a very good investment in the business. But again, for all those small businesses, like we didn't do that until the beginning of the pandemic. Like where I finally like, had to come to Jesus moment. And I was like applying for these PPPs, with my crazy bookkeeping strategy. Isn't working anymore. I need someone to actually like adult define my business. So that's like the other person that I really really work with on the Wolf craft and Wolf PR side. Kirsten's my business partner at Wolf craft, you know, we're equal partners, 50 50, and we are also very symbiotic. Like the things I do, she doesn't really touch and the things she does, I wouldn't even know how to start. She's smarter than me, always business with someone smarter than you.

Kelly Bennett: It's a good tip. I always like to be in business with people that I deeply admire. Are just so fucking good at what they do. I'm like, I wanna hang out with you. Like I wanna be around people who are just top at their game.

Nora Wolf: Yep.

Kelly Bennett: I find that so inspiring.

Nora Wolf: Yep. And then, you know, we'll have contractors who like will upload things into CMS or like resize a bunch of our clippings for us so that they fit on the website, like things that are not really brain work, they need to get done. And we try and hire well and pay fairly and kind of get consistent work.

Nora Wolf: But it's not necessarily.

Kelly Bennett: Got it. Got it. And what, just behind the scenes, what was the idea or the concept of even breaking up the two businesses? Like, did you feel like. It, it needed to happen because you were talking to do two different markets or was it to help you stay organized? I would, I'm just personally curious cuz I love brands and how people set things up.

Nora Wolf: I don't think I ever thought about it in any other way. Like, it was just had to be two businesses. Wolf PR is mine and I have people who work for me, but I own it. And then Wolf Craft is ours and Kirsten will like, let me bounce ideas off of her for Wolf PR if I'm having a hard day. But like, she knows about it, cuz I'll complain to her, but that's kind of it, she's not like involved in it. It doesn't pay her like, you know, Wolf craft pays us there. So it's, they're really different clients, really different businesses. They function really differently. So if you had to sneaker company and a dessert company, they would be two different things

Kelly Bennett: Okay, fair enough I like that.

Nora Wolf: Things feel different enough.

Kelly Bennett: I like, no, that's really helpful too, because I work with people who, are on that and trying to differentiate like saying like, is this a whole new business or is this maybe a brand extension or, you know, working through that. So that's a really good example of how you've organized it.

Nora Wolf: Mm, one of to build on that. One of my one-on-one clients, she's this incredible designer, very smart. And she is going to be debuting these. Next month at a very big trade show called Solona de Mobilely and it's in Milan and it's like one of the furniture industry's like biggest trade shows of the year. Obviously during the pandemic, everything got wacky. It's not usually in June and it's not usually, you know, like whatever. So anyway, it's been a long time coming and she's gonna debut these things and we've been looking at her web presence and she has also incredible jewelry. Alongside her lights. And she has this like planter also and we've been talking a lot about like, is, does a jewelry business belong on your lighting and like bigger pieces business because that's a store and she wants to sell the jewelry. And I was like, you work with an audience who buys like buys $30 earrings, $70 earrings, a very different audience than the people who are going to license your lighting for, you know, DWR who might buy your lights and make them like, they don't care that you make jewelry that you sell. And so like the web presence, the conversation is really different. And so like, even though she's a designer and she can makes everything how those pieces are going to be sold and who the audience that you're communicating with are so different that we did decide to pull them apart into two different businesses.

Kelly Bennett: That's a great example. That's a great example. And anyone who is kind of going back and forth, write that down, go back re-listen to it because yeah, that perfectly said, and I would add onto it. If you feel like there's some continuity of like, it's the same. Consumer who could, it's more so an idea of like product mix of like someone who could shop all the different things that you wanna do. And there's some continuity and through line and storyline that connects all of them. I think that's when you could say, okay, I could curate this maybe in a more refined way, but it makes sense to keep it all under. One the same brand, because it's the same person I'm talking to. And all the products work together versus high end lamps. And what you said, like $30 earrings, not the same, same designer, but just not the same brand in business. So that's a really, really great way of determining which way to go with it.

Nora Wolf: Yeah, for sure.

Kelly Bennett: I love that. So we touched upon Holiday Gift Guides and.

Nora Wolf: Yes.

Kelly Bennett: I, I remember I took one of your classes. I don't know exactly how I even found it probably through your social, but it was you talking about holiday gift guides. And I used to be a marketing director of a city block in downtown Las Vegas with all different shops. And we, I was pushing them to do holiday gift guides, even just through the brands own channels, just because it was more of like showing a curated shopping experience that people could come down to the property and then shop the holiday gift guide at all the different stores. And then what was cool is that there was local publications that picked up the items from the holiday gift guides that we were promoting. And that was like, oh, wow, this is, this is a thing. Like I saw it from that perspective. And the fact that you have such a specialty in it, is there anything that you would share of just getting people thinking about holiday gift guides, how to know if this applies to your business and brand anything. You just wanna put on people's radar about holiday gift guides.

Nora Wolf: We're like going hand right now, talking about that because it is, well, it's surprising to someone, very obvious to others, but like right now is a time where you start. Like take stock of what you wanna do for the holidays for media, usually so long lead print, national publications, those are the kinds of magazines that you're gonna find in an airport newsstand like Esquire, Cosmo, Men's Health, whatever. These are the kinds of publications that are like, kind of everywhere. They all usually take about three to four months lead time. So if you're pitching for an April may issue, you wanna pitch in January.

Kelly Bennett: Mm-hmm

Nora Wolf: Because they have to like, take that story, refine that story, send it to a printer, the printer, print it, lose the pages together and then distributes it nationally. And all that takes time for gift guides that timeline can extend into six or seven months. So we are because there's so many extra pieces of product per page. And I remember I was saying like, oh, these publications. Don't normally print products that like, we don't normally work with them except for the holidays. Like it's just a bigger lift they're doing, things that they don't normally do. And they're freelancers who will come in and just work on those pages for those publications. So we actually start communicating. We're gonna send our first email out probably right after Memorial day to our clients saying, like trying to set up a meeting to talk to a gift guide. Cause it's such a big one. And what we need from them is like, you know, will you have samples ready? Are you gonna have your images ready? Cause that's like a big way that we start pitching. And by the end of June, early July, we start our very initial outreach of like doing gift guides. Like what to themes. Can we send you ideas? Just starting to like open that relationship for the year. So we are on the precipice of reaching out for gift guides. And then we work on that all the way through December, because then you have like regional publications, which have a shorter lead time, but they still have to like print and package and distribute their publications. We have newspapers, which have a shorter lead time, but things like the New York times will have like slightly longer, but your like local city paper, if you're not in New York city might have a slightly shorter lead time. So it really depends like based on what their production is. And then we move to digital. We've started working with influencers. So we have someone for like every kind of lead time, all the way until those like quick. Like, you know, there's all those last minute gift guides. So we pitch for those. If our clients can meet those like shipping expectations. So we have a lot of stuff. So if you are curious, this is the softest plug ever but we have a course for that.

Kelly Bennett: Yes, no plug it that this, I want people to be like, okay, here's the next step? This is what I could do. So you do have a course. Is it an evergreen course or is it available at certain times?

Nora Wolf: It's evergreen it's on the site. We just updated it also. So like before the pandemic, none of our clients were on affiliate link networks. Now all of them are, and we basically can't work with clients that aren't on them. So we added a module about affiliate like networks, because that felt meaningful and important.

Kelly Bennett: Yes. Amazing.

Nora Wolf: We're starting this year to also add, we have like a calendar because everything I just described with the lead line lead times, I'm sure your head's already spinning. And so we have an internal calendar. We created a calendar based on that internal calendar for the course. And now we created this year. We're just putting the finishing touches on it now to start in June late June, like June, like week by week, what you should be doing so that you get an email reminder. So, yeah, because it's like it's a practice. You can't just like do gift guides all in one week and be done. You kind have to do like a little bit every week, but I think it's, we we've seen our clients like spin off and make entire new brands based on how much gift guide press we got for like certain products. So it's, it can be very impactful. And so I'm really proud of that course. Thank you for asking.

Kelly Bennett: Absolutely! Yeah, I'll put the link in the show notes and all that good stuff.

Nora Wolf: I have feeling we can maybe make like a little discount for you. I have to talk with Kirsten, but we might be able to do a special one for Kelly listeners

Kelly Bennett: That would be freaking amazing. I love that. So thank you. Is there anything that you look for because I'm sure that you have many different people hitting you up or a lot of people reaching out. Is there anything that you are looking out for that you're like, huh? That that is cool. Like, I, I could see how we could pitch this, or is there any things that you look for in a brand or a product that you feel like could cut through the noise? Because I'm sure everyone that you just talked about is getting pitched. I mean, thousands or millions? I don't

Nora Wolf: Yeah I get, they get hundreds and hundreds of emails a day. Yes. Tons of emails, especially during the holiday season.

Kelly Bennett: What cut's through the noise?

Nora Wolf: Great question. I have no clue, but I have some ideas I also wanna say, like, we have a higher success rate than like people who just pitch on their own and are in a PR firm, but we're still sub 10%. Like it's just a tough, you know, like sales it's tough. So don't get discouraged that not every email results in a piece of press, that's not. PR works. It's not how it should work. You want the editors to be discerning and you just try again. Okay. So what cuts through the very first thing that would like make me not wanna work with someone is if they didn't have good photography, they have like really cool artsy fartsy photography. But if they don't have photography that hits kind like a media standard in industry standard, like. All the gift guides have, most of them are, they're either calling in product or they're using like e-commerce solo against white, white sweeps, like that kind of photography. And there's very little shadows. It's very evenly lit. It's like kind of boring photography. But if my client doesn't have that photography, the editor is not gonna pull in your like weird DIY version of that. And it's just gonna look weird on the page when you're, it's surrounded by others that have kind of like standardized this photography. The publication brings to the table, millions of eyeballs. I have to bring to the table assets they can use for those millions of eyeballs. So that's like theosis. Their budgets are totally slashed, so they can't do as many photo shoots as they wanted to. So that's what they need. So if someone's like resistant to photography feedback, doesn't take enough photos. Doesn't take the right photos. I don't care how cool your product is. I cannot make it work. So that's the first thing.

Kelly Bennett: that's huge. Okay. I love that feedback.

Nora Wolf: And I'm sure that you have the same conversations with your clients about like what kind of photography they need to have.

Kelly Bennett: And it's so cool. And I love when there's like themes of the day, because I also did a earlier recording for the podcast with Kate Christie of folk founded, who designed my website and.

Nora Wolf: Oh, cool.

Kelly Bennett: She's super cool. And we were talking about photography and how that impacts your website. And this is the through line of also now, how it will impact your press. And I, I love really honing in on things that I could see how it could be used from multiple different aspects of your business. And I think photography. Is one of the top things like you need good photos because then we could use it for social. We could use it for marketing. You could use it for PR. You could use it for your website. You gotta get good photos. And I know that it's something that people need to work up towards, but there will come a point where if you don't take that leap or take that next investment, you're holding yourself back because you can't, you, you could only take it so far.

Nora Wolf: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Bennett: Very

Nora Wolf: so that's the yeah, 1000%. Yeah. So if they're not taking good photos or they're not willing to reshoot, like, if they, if I tell them that they need to like, like we can't, and I won't take their money because we can't do anything cool with them. So that's the number one thing. And then like, are they a grown up business? If they're not a grown up business, then we'll work with them one on one to get them there with will craft. But with will PR they're grown up business. Like, are they, like engaging in trade shows. If that's like how their bus, like their peers work are.

Kelly Bennett: Yeah, define, grown up business just so I know.

Nora Wolf: Girl, everyone has their own version of it, but like

Kelly Bennett: okay.

Nora Wolf: are you doing interesting collaborations? Do you know people in your industry, do you like release things on a schedule that makes sense with like how your industry works? Like are you gearing up for like bigger things down the line. Do you have like a plan? Do you have interesting designers coming in and doing guest work with you? Like whatever it is that like makes your business not just like a DIY exploration. That's how I know I can work with you because it means that you're doing interesting things all the way down the line. And we'll have stories to tell so that's kind of like, yeah. Do you have a website that looks professional? Does, does your store have like stock or is everything sold out all the time? You know, like what is going on with your business that makes it that we can, that we can amplify it. If I always say PI is a microphone, we can't make your song a hit song. We can make it louder. So you, you are responsible for making it a hit song. I mean,

Kelly Bennett: Oh, I like that analogy. I like that because that's a good, I, I agree. PR and, and myself included for a long time. I was like, what the hell is this mystical thing called PR? And I feel like it's still kind of this mystery of how it all works. So I like that, um, example that you gave that it's the microphone,

Nora Wolf: Yeah. We amplify.

Kelly Bennett: Yeah, that's a really good that that's someone you could wrap your head around and be like, okay, got it. And, and you could do a lot on your own, but then there, again, this seems to be a theme. And I think it's very reflective of how I've been feeling about my business, that there will come these points where. In order to keep it growing and to like see it through to the fullest potential. There are these leaps that you take to invest because this is, this is how you could build it. And you do it in your own unique way. You go in your own pace and you know, that is totally up to you as a person, but there's definitely these moments where you're like, you know what? I've been doing so much on my own. And now I'm ready for a microphone. I know my message. I know what the hell I do. I know why I do it. I see. I have my products, like things are rocking and rolling and like having a microphone would just amplify that even more.

Nora Wolf: Totally. I have one more answer for you as to kind of like making your song, like a grown up business or like things I look for. I think a lot of people go into business and become entrepreneurs because it scratches an itch inside of them, which is very good. Right? Like I wanna help women or I wanna like be an artist. And so that's why I'm doing whatever it is. I wanna make a lot of money and that is good. And it isn't part of your founder story. And it's something that you can and should talk about. But the second that you are making the switch of like, how am I providing something to someone else is when you're ready to engage with a public. Right. And so like, if people are like, I feel really good about my business because I, you know, like I've helped people is very different than like, my business is interesting to you, the consumer, because you can buy. Blankets and like the story of the blankets and how like they're made by, you know, women who are refugees or whatever is an important part of the story, but it's not about you anymore. It's about like the people who are engaging with your business. If you were communicating that, and that's part of your brand story, then like I can help amplify it because that's what we're doing. We're like making it for everyone. So when the funnel goes out away from you, instead of towards you, that's like a pretty big marker of like growing up business versus like you're still working through.

Kelly Bennett: I love that example. Thank you. That's a great example. And it's so funny in the incubator. The first class I teach is called the business side of your creativity. it's really helping you find that boundary of like who you are as a creative, but then what does that look like as a brand and a business and just helping people sort through that and like really doing the inner work to find that clarity. And I think it's like one of the. Helpful classes I've ever taught. I've been teaching classes for creatives for nine years now. And this is when I keep coming back to and refining because once you get that clarity and then you can say, this is who I am as a human. This is my purpose. This is all the, all that stuff that we we need and we wanna connect with. But then also this is the brand and this is the product, and this is how you shop the brand. This is how you buy the product, having those boundaries. You need to distill that down in order to really take it to the next level.

Nora Wolf: 1000%.

Kelly Bennett: I love that. So anyone who's listening, most likely the people listening are wanting to know more about the holiday gift guide. They wanna take the courses. They're like, okay, I'm ready to explore PR. I'm ready to take that next step. What is the best way to, uh, reach out, to sign up, to learn more? What does that look like?

Nora Wolf: Okay. So we are on the Instagram, which is how you and I met. And. That is at go dot Wolf dot. And it's just Kirsten to myself. So you're gonna get one of us. And I talk to her literally six times a day, like we're always on the phone. So if you're getting her, you're also gonna get me and vice versa. We have a newsletter that we're both really proud of and we pour a lot into, I think you subscribe Kelly.

Kelly Bennett: Say, I am, I've told I'm a big fan. I am on the email list. I get the newsletters. I thought it was a great newsletter cuz I don't sign up for many. I'll be honest. I'm very discerning when it comes to what I put my email, but yours was awesome.

Nora Wolf: So I take that very seriously because I'm also a person. Like three or 400 emails a day. So we basically don't dump

Kelly Bennett: shit.

Nora Wolf: into people's inboxes. Yeah. I'm also discerning with who I'll allow in because I have to allow so much work in, also why I don't have slack because I have enough in one inbox

Kelly Bennett: Yes,

Nora Wolf: we're not on Slack. You will never find us on Slack. Sign up a newsletter if you want. Also, we always encourage people to reply to the newsletter and it's again, just me and Kirsten noodling in the background. So like, it's not like a EA in another country it's just us. And then you can also shoot an email at hello@wolf-craft.com those would be the three best ways to get in touch.

Kelly Bennett: Love it. And just thank you again for sharing all of your insights. You shared so many great tactful things that people could get started on now, and really helping understand the power of PR when to take that next step with PR and what to start thinking about now to give your business the most leverage that it can have.

Nora Wolf: you're an incredible interviewer and I always vibe off your energy. Like, please keep being you and bringing that special something to the table because it's like, it's incredible. I want only good things for you

Kelly Bennett: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you everyone for listening and I'll see you on the next episode. Bye.